Template talk:SkillPage

There needs to be discussions and proposals before making changes to this template.

Since this is now affecting a lot of pages. More care and effort should be made to editing this template.

Please make a proposal here under a new topic before editing the template. -- Everspace (talk) 18:10, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

General Skills

On current issue is that in any General Skill, such as Backstep, the SkillNavs have two General's and one Male Gunner.--Dfoplayer (talk) 18:13, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

Lets not use that random template that converts things then (Template:BaseClass). GeinieWiz is not a class, Witch is. If people enter in that wrong we don't want it. That's what the whole Type2/Gender thing is for -- Everspace (talk) 18:24, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

Understood. I wasn't sure on that template, since it's purpose was to have on any subclass skills, include base class. Example, Spirit Summon Wisp has Female Mage Nav. I'll let you deal with that. --Dfoplayer (talk) 19:08, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

i was trying to get {{baseclass}} to cover more general things. thought my edit covered the general/mgunner thing, apparently it didn't? probably gonna ed baseclass to take out awakening names if i can't figure this out then.

[ed: fixed... messed up on skillpage actually, had a mismatched bracket. found/fixed via vim, go external editors!] ～dfmchfhf ^(T·C) 03:41, 29 May 2015 (PDT)

Need someone who knows how to make the templates for these witch attributes :d thanks in advance you know the only class with the luck based thing

Template:FailureRate

Template:SuccessRate

Template:SleeperRate --Mariowh (talk) 02:41, 2 June 2015 (PDT)

Independent Attack

Just to be clear, the independent attack is based on the level cap amount? Arrol (talk) 09:43, 4 June 2015 (PDT)

Here, this may help answer your question: DnF Central Character Attributes. For the most part, Independent Attack Power is mostly gained through two ways: gaining it passively per level or getting it from your weapon. Other options include refining, skills, upgrading etc. Fixed damage skills use a formula such as the following: Your Independent Attack Power x Growth Constant = Fixed Damage. Of course, the fixed damage growth constant goes up with skill level. To find this constant, we are supposed to use Template:AbsoluteDamage for disambiguation since all players' total IAP are not the same due to having different weapons, upgrades, and the like. This means the fixed damage on your screen for that skill level may be different from another player's fixed damage for the same level. I hope this helps. --Altair (talk) 10:11, 4 June 2015 (PDT)

Class2

What's the new Class2 variable supposed to mean? --SirKerfluffles (talk) 13:09, 25 July 2015 (PDT)

When a skill has two classes, like Zanbato Mastery.--Dfoplayer (talk) 16:32, 25 July 2015 (PDT)

Is it possible to add more than one Video?

Is there a way to do so? Arrol (talk) 06:13, 27 July 2015 (PDT)

I think we can do that. Where would you want it, under the first video?--Dfoplayer (talk) 08:23, 27 July 2015 (PDT)

That could work. Can it also work the same for icons? Arrol (talk) 11:59, 27 July 2015 (PDT)

The template appends .png after skillname. I don't think having two icons is a good thing. Can you give me an example?--Dfoplayer (talk) 19:34, 27 July 2015 (PDT)

Is it possible to add a section to show a skill's elemental attribute?

Arrol (talk)

Depends. Does a skill have one element? Or is it possible to have all four? If the latter, the best case scenario is to write some wiki code to do complex calculations, making it efficient.

While it is possible to add the basic four parameters |fireAttrEffect=, |waterAttrEffect=, and the other two (shadow and light), I need to know what text you are aiming to add.

Can you give me an example?

Dfoplayer (talk)

Well, I dont know how to do coding but I was thinking of putting something like you suggested like |fireAttrEffect= or |allAttrEffect= for all elemental attacks. I had something in mind like this.

https: //postimg .cc/gXPZG2yk

Then again in the case of Asura which can imbue Light to his elemental attacks, that would be more difficult.

Arrol (talk)

Well, if it's just a simple "Elemental Attribute: <element>", then I can probably make a simple |ElementAttribute=Fire,Water,Shadow,Light

For a moment, I was thinking other text, such as "Inflicts 10 fire damage." Therefore of list of elements in a parameter would not work. I'll try to spin something up later today.

Dfoplayer (talk)

Alright. It's working.

Visit here User:Dfoplayer/EtchASketch2 to see a sample. We should probably only post in one area.

I'm leaning towards keeping the "Attribute" section and getting rid of the skill info box on right.

Dfoplayer (talk)

i'm biased to say I like the infobox one but you are the editor here. Is it also possible to add automatic categories for elemental skills?

Arrol (talk)

I have come to the conclusion the reason why there are big-ass gaps in places like Black Hole is because the category setting code and the way that the nav is displayed are both in the same place.

Categories need to be set before or after the skill nav, and this just needs to be fiddled around with. I've tried but it's been too long. If anyone wants to take a stab at it, it should probably be sorted into something like this:

<!-------------------------------------------
              Categories
---------------------------------------------->

[[Category:Skills]]
[[Category:{{{Type}}} Skills]]<!-- Active or Passive-->

{{#switch:{{{Gender}}}
|Both =[[Category:Male {{{Class}}} Skills]][[Category:Female {{{Class}}} Skills]]
|Female=[[Category:Female {{{Class}}} Skills]]
|Male=[[Category:Male {{{Class}}} Skills]]
|[[Category:{{{Class}}} Skills]]
}}


<!-------------------------------------------
              Skill Nav
---------------------------------------------->

{{#switch:{{{Gender}}}
|Both={{SkillNav|Male {{{Class|???}}}|{{{Type2|}}}|Male}}
{{SkillNav|Female {{{Class|???}}}|{{{Type2|}}}|Female}}
|{{SkillNav|{{{Gender|}}} {{{Class|???}}}|{{{Type2|}}}|{{{Gender|}}}}}
}}

{{SkillNav|General|{{{Type2|}}}}}

This should condense all the whitespace that gets added when setting categories and the like, and get rid of the ugly gaps.

Don't be afraid to duplicate a similar if statement in the two categories.

-- Everspace (talk)

Hmmm. Interesting.

Probably my fault for making simple if-else statements. I'll look into this over the next week. No guarantees though, as you said "it's been too long."

And I put WAY too many curly braces...

Dfoplayer (talk)

Should be working now. Here is a test User:Dfoplayer/EtchASketch

The main issue was that in there were white space between the if block for skillNav. I did that for readability, but i guess it generates < br > tags.

I removed those new lines, but made a comment of saying where the next if block

Dfoplayer (talk)

Generally I remember investigating and it was any search with no results returns <br/> or <p>&nbsp;</p> which then gets shunted out of the table up or down making the big honking whitespaces.

-- Everspace (talk)

So I've generally put this type of thing on the Metastasis talk page, but this seems more appropriate and I'm feeling like the same people will end up seeing it anyways so here goes.

1. In regards to how "Notes" feels kinda too general, I recently edited Seismic Punch and thought of how to better separate the skill info. Taking the skill's game description from the "Basic Description" tab, we can separate the it into the 3 sections roughly like Description, Additional Inputs, Additional Mechanics, like I've done here. It's not very apparent here, but this would be particularly useful for Awakening skills that tend to that that stuff that goes "At level 3, skill does this...At 6, more stuff...At 9...becomes more OP". Then for Notes, that section can be dedicated to other usage notes that aren't really apparent, stuff that only happens in special cases, etc.
2. Now that the game separates buffs from other skills, I feel like the Type3 should be changed to if the skill is a buff or not. Toggleable seems like something that should be put in the attributes section, and there's so few of them anyway it should be pretty easy to change.
3. On a related note (though it won't affect the skill template), in regards to the Cast Time attribute, I'm finding that it's not really that useful to include in the Attributes section unless the skill is a buff. Pretty much everything that isn't a buff seems to be considered "Instant Cast", which really isn't very accurate because even if the move has a considerable start up animation the game still says it's "Instant Cast". The game is pretty much saying "This move starts the instant you press the skill key or command", but that's true about all the skills. It isn't the same as "This skill's first active frame is on X", which is really what be useful info.

SirKerfluffles (talk)

I like the way it is currently handled. Description just describes the skill without going too in depth in the mechanics of the skill. Attributes are numerical constants of the skill like cooldowns and cube costs. Notes is for any additional information that could affect skill usage like iframe availability, additional inputs, or conditions for use. If you add additional categories like that it will make other skills that don't have anything to put there seem less complete, while if a skill has fewer lines of notes it's not really a big deal. Additionally some skills have inputs in their in game description while others do not. Blood Sword's in-game description tells you that it is possible to stab in place by holding back but Thrust does not say anything about reducing the distance by holding back. So do these two skills have differing pages in this regard even though their additional inputs are the same but thrust's is not apparent?

Having toggleable as a type allows for categorization. Maybe a new line called Buff with yes or no or blank=no as values would be worthwhile so they can be categorized automatically. Speaking of that maybe changing type3 to toggleable in the same way would be a good idea.

I think the cast time deal is in regards to Indomitable Spirit. I don't use the skill myself but maybe someone can tell if there is an instant cast skill that is affected by indomitable spirit. There are also plenty of attack skills that have actual cast times. Many mage skills have cast times for example. Photon Bomb and Napalm have cast times. Nearly all Dark Templar skills have cast times. I think for the sake of consistency it would be better to include cast time even if it is simply instant cast. Providing as much information as possible is a wiki's purpose as well.

Lokd (talk)

Can a skill be BOTH togglable and a buff at the same time? Then yes, we need to rethink this. Otherwise, you can fill in Type3=Buff, if there are no conflictions.

Dfoplayer (talk)

Yes, Apply Poison is like this, although in my defence the last time I played skills like this just had a really long duration rather than how it is now.

I really think that the way I handled this really sucks. Preferably I would like to migrate to the use Semantic, and the idea of just a skill info-box for the more data and numerical parts to take care of all these obnoxious intersections (and future ones if the they make something like Demonize or Apostlize a toggle).

-- Everspace (talk)

Sorry for the below. I suck at being concise.

The way it's shown on Seismic Punch is probably misleading compared to what I mean. I did it like that because you can't just go in adding more categories freely with the template. Like putting |NewSection=(words text info rambling) will literally be ignored by the wiki and nothing will change on the page.

To clarify, I agree with the sentiment that Description should pretty much be a short skill description without going too in-depth. Looking at how Seismic Punch is now, that would mean the Description section would just be the mini Description I put under the Modified Game Description (which would be left out entirely. It was just for reference for this discussion). The other two Additional Inputs and Additional Mechanics section could be in the overarching Notes section. I was initially thinking they could be their own sections in the template (ex: |Mechanics=...), but it doesn't matter much where they are as long as that type of information is easily delineated from the rest of the random notes somehow. Pretty much I'm saying the Notes can get messy (considering all the stuff that's in it, like you described Lokd) and important stuff key to how the skill works should be easily discernible.

Ghost 7: Furious Blache is a pretty decent example to use here. Read through the Notes. Now let's just pretend there's some other bullet points in there describing imaginary special inputs like "if you hold left/right, you can determine which direction the whale leaps up from" and "if you push the skill key again before Blanche appears it does more knockback". Because it's too much work to look for another skill with this much going on already in the notes. For the most part, everything not in one of the subsections (Ghost Bonuses + Tips) is describing skill mechanics, how the skill actually works. Bullets 4 and 7 are kinda questionable in that sense. Damage type is something I feel should be a skill attribute (Attributes isn't just numbers btw, considering we're counting Basic Attack Cancellable as an attribute). And Bullet 7 sounds more like a thing that goes into the already nicely defined Tips Subsection since not it's really saying anything regarding how the skill works. It's just providing info on something you can do to maximize efficiency if you were playing around and realized this detail. Now if the 2 command bullets I mentioned were randomly put in that list, I think it'd be weird to have to read through a bunch of additional info before fining the part that say "Hey btw, you can press this button during the skill to control how it works. Back to this thing about sacrificing ghosts...".

I don't think adding these categories would make other skill pages look less complete. If the sections aren't there, I'd just assume that there's nothing special about the skill in those regards. Or we could just always include the sections and say "None" or something, but that's a waste of space imo.

Regarding the Blood Sword vs. Thrust thing, they would both have the Additional Inputs section. The in game descriptions can be kinda lackluster at times so we have to use our better judgment. I swear, the description they give for Needle Spin is something like "Throws a needle and inflicts damage" (can't log onto the game now to check). Which is so off. And then they give an essay for Needle Throw itself that doesn't really even mention throwing needles.

@Dfoplayer: Wave Manifestation Brand appears to be both. It bothers me a bit that there's apparently there's no super category of just "Togglable moves", but instead it's per class (Demon Slayer Toggleable Moves, Soul Bender Toggleable moves, etc.).

As a side note, looking at Ghost 7, I feel like it's a good idea to move the Attributes section to be right above the Skill Growth section. It's usually not a problem, but if the Notes section gets big enough, I don't see why I'd have to scroll up past a wall of text to find information like SP cost and cooldowns that technically could be in the tables, but we aren't putting them because they're static. Spirit Summon: Spirit King Echeverria and Astral Storm for more examples.

SirKerfluffles (talk)

Ah. Okay. My solution would be |Toggable=y and |Buff=y. But, knowing certain people, they might agree with you on making a Template:Togglable, {{Toggable}, which automatically puts the skill into Category:Toggable Skill.

Dfoplayer (talk)

Ah, ok nice to verify that having a template automatically categorizes (I was just assuming before).

In the previous post I forgot to mention. For Cast Time, I guess it's fine if that's the case with Mages and Dark Templar. I don't particularly like the misleading "Instant Cast" for most skills though. But that's a whole 'nother issue involving collecting frame data for the game. If anyone wants to go ahead, but no way I'm up for that anytime soon.

I somewhat revoke my previous statement about moving the Attributes section, as "quick information at a glance" takes more priority over grouping information in edge cases. So it's probably fine where it is. Though on a related note, as I continue to work on the skills I'm finding more things that could be attributes. Like what about "Super Armor", "Invincibility", "Grab" (maybe even a distinction between Hold and Super Hold which I'm not really clear on). Despite the list size being variable per skill, I kinda fancy the idea of having the Attributes in the side box, kind of like how Bulbapedia does it on any Pokemon page. Just a thought.

SirKerfluffles (talk)

Indicating and differentiating between grabs might be cool. There are forced hitstun traps like Bloody Twister and grabs. For me the only difference there is one can work on large enemies like Skasa and the other can't. This could be more thoroughly test on mecha tau with his grab guard. I think any hitstun traps will work through that. In game the difference between a hold and super hold is sort of simple. A super hold occurs when you interrupt or prevent a monster from performing an attack. It doesn't necessarily have to be a grab. Stun status can trigger a super hold.

For invincibility and super armor and some other things, that might be more complicated. Many skills only have super armor or invincibility for certain frames. For example, Mountainous Wheel has super armor after the apex of the jump and iframes once you land and for a bit afterwards. Might look a bit messy unless you just indicate skills have super armor with a big Skill has super armor template or something general like that. If you decide to specifically state when the skill gains and loses super armor, it might look weird beside all these other attributes which are generally very short and concise. Or maybe it won't. Try throwing together an example skill page on your user page and let's see how it looks.

Lokd (talk)

With the new update changing our buffs into a cyan color, I thought it'd be spiffy to create us a third column for buffs in the skill box below.

Arrol (talk)

That would be interesting, but I think that that's better handled under the medley of skills. I do however believe they should be categorized as buffs on their skill page since this is now a game distinction.

-- Everspace (talk)

Yea, I think it could work, however, I have no knowledge of extracting the cyan skill icons so I'm looking out the web.

Arrol (talk)

You can grab 'em off my talk page

AradEditGuy (talk)