Talk:The Great Skill Metastasis Project

Cast Time / Cooldown in skill tables

Many of the skill tables don't have either the cast time or cool time (cooldown) on them. Are we going to include this information in the table or on the page? Imho, I think they should be put in the table... but any other say on the matter? - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 19:40, 23 May 2015 (PDT)

Hard to say really. User Talk:Dfoplayer#Consistency. I would prefer in "attributes" but if the cooldown/cast time changes, it should go into the table. But then for consistency reasons, we should keep everything in the table for all skills. --Dfoplayer (talk) 19:48, 23 May 2015 (PDT)

Thanks for the link I was looking for that discussion and glanced over your page too fast! On another quick note, are we switching to the new skill page layout now and where can I find an example/guide to go off of? - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 19:53, 23 May 2015 (PDT)

Best one would be  Spirit Summon: Wisp. Make sure you include

<span style="display: none;">{{</span>
//skill table
<span style="display: none;">}}</span>

since templates hate pipes "|" and we use that to "hide" the pipes in skill tables. Otherwise, we would need {{!}}{{!}} for every "||" which looks likes "butts". User_talk:Everspace#Extensions --Dfoplayer (talk) 20:03, 23 May 2015 (PDT)

So many butts. Personally, I don't care for rowspan="58"|15 littered about the wiki pages, because that value doesn't grow or change. The table should be about being able to compare how a skill changes as it progresses. Should all skills have a "rowspan=32|Instant" for their cast time component? I don't think so.

-- Everspace (talk) 20:07, 23 May 2015 (PDT)

agreed with Everspace... some tables (e.g. befriend pluto or fusion craft) have way too much going on already and the extra column for sp cost and other constant values would make them way more crowded than they need to be. maybe it's just f.mages (esp. summy and witch) where it's this crowded though, other classes usually have far fewer values.

perhaps we can put the ct/cd/sp data in a constant place via params in template:skillpage and redirect to the table if values change? ～dfmchfhf ^(T·C) 08:12, 25 May 2015 (PDT)

Alright, I'll put the casting time and cooldown in the attributes section of the skill page. For the most part they don't ever change and the stats shown tooltip don't change even with different weapons. The only time I've seen them modified in the tooltips was with Equip Boxing Gloves since it's obtained automatically upon awakening as either a male/female striker. - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 21:41, 25 May 2015 (PDT)

What's the point of those extra skill templates?

I'm just asking as the pages already have them and the way they're formated especailly with trivia bits makes it a tad awkward.--Fishman46 (talk) 21:20, 25 May 2015 (PDT)

Which skill templates? The skilNav or the skillPage? SkillNav is automatically generated, so should Neople add a new skill, we do not have to manually change skillNav, just create a skill in correct category. I believe everspace wants to standardize some things, so if you want, we can add a Triva option ("|Triva=") in skillPage. --Dfoplayer (talk) 21:39, 25 May 2015 (PDT)

A couple of concerns...

Not to be rude, but I have a few questions and concerns with this massive project and the data listed on Template:Skill Page. I'll list them below:

• Is there going to be a "show General Skills" option like Fishman46's navigational template? The lack of general skills navigation is disturbing. It makes traversing through skill pages a lot more annoying and difficult for new users.
• Are these pages going to include PvP stats as well as dungeon/towers/faction war etc?
• I don't think this template is fit for passive skills. I am having an issue with the Skill Growth section when making pages for class passives that do not require a skill growth table (e.g. Icy Aura or Grace of God). I delete the Skill Growth code, but the section persists on the page. It seems a bit awkward to have such extraneous information. Is there a solution to omit this section without altering the template significantly?
• Does the factor of "Basic Attack Cancelable Skill" fall under the Attribute or Notes section?

--Altair (talk) 07:55, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

• Added General Skills. Needs to have the correct category for TP.
• Not Sure. Look at High Kick.
• Added SkillGrowth as an option.
• No idea. I feel like it is an Attribute, more than a Note. Feel free to dispute though.

--Dfoplayer (talk) 08:10, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

Thanks for the quick response and changes. Oh, I didn't see that High Kick page. I'll use that format, it looks A LOT cleaner than just making the table larger and adds easy access for future changes. I tend to lose track of my edits when dealing with large tables like Elemental Shift. --Altair (talk) 08:25, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

I believe someone said if the female/male skills are the same, we can just use tabs template to make separate skill tables. But for consistency reasons, we should create separate pages, like Doppelganger Blast and Doppelganger Blast (M).

SIDENOTE: When you convert a skill with Template:SkillPage, you do not have to include the "Category:Skills Category:(Class) Skills" or any other category at the end. The Template already includes those for you. I just had to add them during the cat-a-lot move so we can find them easily.--Dfoplayer (talk) 08:34, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

Actually I don't feel it is necessary to create a new page for a skill unless it is completely different from it's gender alternate skill. For example, I recently updated the page, Robotics. The description and effects do not change much, with exception of some gender differences. Doing this keeps pages from taking up extraneous space and prevents unnecessary repetitive data, while making the wiki look more professional.--Altair (talk) 22:21, 28 May 2015 (PDT)

disambiguation pages might also be useful, then we can have the multiple pages, retain the usefulness of the bare skill name (redirecting disambiguations, like how wikipedia handles some things), and still look professional.

[ed: also robotics is so similar because m/f gunner was the first genderswap and they didn't want to change too much; later genderswaps were differentiated more as a result of the playerbase's feedback.] ～dfmchfhf ^(T·C) 03:12, 29 May 2015 (PDT)

playing with a way to do pvp skills without making it too complex on my own webserver, by the way. if anyone else has been doing this too leave a message on my talk page or via irc (i'm usually online but /away on irc). note also there are currently-ignored params in e.g. cast time on the skillpage/attributes sample

also added {{cancelable}} under attributes yesterday. basically anything that shows up in the tooltip text in the game should be an attribute; notes should contain more extraneous information. ～dfmchfhf ^(T·C) 03:12, 29 May 2015 (PDT)

Hey Dfoplayer, do I have your permission to move the data from Flash Mine (Female) to Flash Mine? I find having an extra page with the same skill function and skill icon to exist to be repetitive. All gender differences can be addressed in attributes and skill tables. --Altair (talk) 15:26, 19 June 2015 (PDT)

If Male and Female are the same, but different skill growths, then yes. If you need a reference, then a good one is Ez-8 Time Bomb.--Dfoplayer (talk) 19:02, 19 June 2015 (PDT)

Donating Skill Preview videos

I noticed that plenty of skill pages (I.E. Elemental Bomber) lacks a preview video. Is it possible we can donate skill previews made ourselves and send it to a video provider that will work here? Arrol (talk) 16:00, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

Most of the time, we use youtube as our video provider. Feel free to record using your favorite screen recorder. A couple ways to crop videos so you can just focus on skill is VLC or VirutalDub. Once you upload to youtube, get the ID, like "watch?v=O_6YwZOBlkU" and enter in the SkillPage template of "|Video=". As for quality, many videos are pretty low. If you want to upload higher quality, feel free to. --Dfoplayer (talk) 16:11, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

I mean is there a Youtube channel we can donate our videos to? Arrol (talk) 19:31, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

I am not aware of one, sorry. --Dfoplayer (talk) 19:42, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

Categories

Due to changes of Template:SkillPage, Template:SkillNav, and Template:ClassSkills, the Skill Project now contains the SkillNavs and old Skill Navigation for every class as a reference to get things sorted.
Should we leave it here?--Dfoplayer (talk) 19:23, 27 May 2015 (PDT)

What's the Focus? KDnF or DFOG

I've noticed several skills in certain jobs that's not available in DFOG and likely not in other servers but in KDNF. Might I ask, what is the main focus for the wiki? For Western players, Eastern? Arrol (talk) 23:46, 18 June 2015 (PDT)

Actually, I've been wondering this as well... For the past few months, I felt that most of the focus was on future content, particularly on the Female Slayer, Kunoichi, Shadow Dancer, 2nd Awakenings, and Knight. It's nice and all to have all the information on future content, but there is only so much accessible information to be had outside of the region lock. It is highly probable that the data collected for the initial future content will be revised and released to DFOG in the revised version, which in turn leaves our data to be obsolete (e.g. the Thief rebalance patch). This in-turn causes the wiki to look more outdated, and makes it less of a credible source. There needs to be a balance between updating unreleased content vs. updating current DFOG content.
By focusing so much on future content, it created a backlash and influx of work to update old pages. As of right now, the wiki is in severe lack of current content, particularly in the area of skill data. Just look at the Base Class:M/F Gunner and Priest skills most of them are extremely outdated. Because of this, outdated skill data has become a main priority, and must be updated to have the main structure done as placeholders for future updates (i.e. up to Lv. 85 cap). Hopefully, by doing this this we can lessen the required editing in the future. However, most of the skill pages on the wiki haven't been updated since 2011-2012, and have extremely outdated Rebirth values (e.g. Tombstone Triangle) which is one of the main reasons why we are doing this massive project overhaul.--Altair (talk) 02:07, 19 June 2015 (PDT)

Is it possible we could like like a tag or something explaining that this is future content? Arrol (talk) 19:38, 19 June 2015 (PDT)

Yeah, there's a template for that. Use the "FutureContent" Template. --Altair (talk) 20:06, 19 June 2015 (PDT)

Display bug?

Not sure what's messing it up, maybe one of the templates but on pages FM-92 mk2 Lancer and FM-92 mk2 Lancer Upgrade, the skillnav displays the male general skills rather than the female. Awakening pages display their correct gender skills fine and skills that have both genders display them all fine as well. --AradEditGuy (talk) 17:55, 24 June 2015 (PDT)

Actually, I'm having the same problem as well with the page Air Bomb Mech: Gale Force Upgrade. I think there's a problem with the If statements in the template. --Altair (talk) 17:58, 24 June 2015 (PDT)

Should be fixed now. I tested on Air Bomb Mech: Gale Force Upgrade and Enraged Black Knight Sandor. If this breaks more skills than I intended, sorry. :/. --Dfoplayer (talk) 23:00, 24 June 2015 (PDT)

Well with F.Slayer out now, we have another skillnav problem, but probably a lot more simple to fix: the base Female Slayer skillnav doesn't appear under their subclass skill pages. Right now only Sword Master has skills under the new SkillPage template to test: Ascent and Blade Dance. --AradEditGuy (talk) 13:06, 8 July 2015 (PDT)

That's a Template:BaseClass issue, not SkillPage. Fixed, tested on Ascent, Blade Dance, Devolution Flyswatter, Air Combat Mech Tempester, and Ice Crash Upgrade.--Dfoplayer (talk) 17:28, 8 July 2015 (PDT)

Togglable Skills

I've edited Composure today and noticed that it's not showing up on the Female Slayer page though it's a passive skill. Is there any other weird interaction with other togglable skills? I also wanted to know whether togglable should be included as a skill type and if so...which of the versions of the word do we use..? - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 21:02, 7 July 2015 (PDT)

I remember seeing this a while ago and don't think it's been fixed yet with any togglable skills. Composure should appear again if you remove it and leave it as a passive instead. --AradEditGuy (talk) 21:44, 7 July 2015 (PDT)

I'll just keep it as a passive for now, so it'll at least show up on the page. - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 21:50, 7 July 2015 (PDT)

I can probably fix that. I just need a list of different skills with Togglable, like Awakening passive and active, 2nd Awakening passive and active, or just Togglable. Also, is it only for F. Slayers or are there other classes too with Togglable?--Dfoplayer (talk) 22:12, 7 July 2015 (PDT)

I think there's only Passive-Toggle, and Passive-Awakening, could be wrong though but here's a few:

• Composure (Passive, Toggle)
• Defensive Instinct (Passive, Toggle)
• Broomstick Control (Passive, Toggle)
• Overheat (Passive, Toggle, Awakening) --AradEditGuy (talk) 13:00, 8 July 2015 (PDT)

There's also Frozen Soul which is a passive, toggle and awakening skill. It's strange cause active togggleable skills will show on their respective class' page like Wave Manifestation Brand on the Asura's page. - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 15:23, 8 July 2015 (PDT)

That's cause both Frozen Soul and Wave Manifestation Brand have forced categories. Check the source page. Someone forgot to remove them when migrating to skillpage. SkillPage's purpose to to remove those hard-wired categories. I'm working on fixing SkillPage now. --Dfoplayer (talk) 20:40, 8 July 2015 (PDT)

Issue is now fixed. Tested on Composure and Overheat and their respective class pages. Do note that if the skill is togglable AND awakening or 2nd awakening, the skill will appear twice in the class page. EX: Female Launcher.--Dfoplayer (talk) 21:14, 8 July 2015 (PDT)

Icon Linking status effects

A while back I edited the Status Effects page so that we can use icon linking with the status effects. I posted the finished links on the talk page but I'll put them here so you all can see them too. Now when using these should I link for every instance the status effect is referenced? I'll show the Ice Wave Sword page as an example. - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 11:43, 24 July 2015 (PDT)

Positive Effects

•  Super Armor (Status)
•  Haste (Status)
•  Blessing (Status)
•  Invincibility (Status)

Negative Effects

•  Electrocution (Status)
•  Bleeding (Status)
•  Burn (Status)
•  Poison (Status)
•  Blind (Status)
•  Stun (Status)
•  Stone Curse (Status)
•  Frozen (Status)
•  Sleep (Status)
•  Confusion (Status)
•  Bind (Status)
•  Slow Down (Status)
•  Curse (Status)
•  Armor Destroy (Status)
•  Weapon Destruction (Status)

Yes, I think that is a great idea to link them instead of "<Skill> may cause <status effect>".--Dfoplayer (talk) 18:50, 24 July 2015 (PDT)

Same name, Different Icon

Started working on the female grappler and ran into this issue. For example Grab Cannon and Nen Shot have different icons for the male and female versions. Is there a way we can show both icons or would we have to use an image editor to "glue" them together and use that for the image? - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 11:59, 28 July 2015 (PDT)

Quick response: Can't you just do it like it already is on the Grab Cannon page, where both versions are linked? Also, I don't think Nen Shot really has different images since I don't play the classes (the 2 versions look the same is what I'm considering different). But if you mean there's 2 separate image files then...

Long response: Oh gosh this issue. I'll share what I know for now, but I can't tell for sure how this is being handled overall. This is part of a bigger problem (almost exclusively for Fighters I think) of skills sharing the same name, but differing in effects/images. In regards to images, from what Dfoplayer told me on my talk page, "According to Everspace we should probably use [Skill Name] (Male/Female) as the standard". What we seem to be pushing for is something like how Venom Mine is handled, where there's 2 versions of images/skill pages, separated by a (Gender) modifier at the end of the names. However, there is this one time I remember Dfoplayer pointed to the skill table in Nen Shot saying we should try and separate the gender differences like that. Overall, you're gonna find working on the fighter sections is gonna be messy. Unless someone worked on fixing that in the past 3 weeks. --SirKerfluffles (talk) 12:34, 28 July 2015 (PDT)

I completely understand. It took a while working on just Intense Takedown and Grab Cannon... I don't really want to go any further (Fling, (M)Fling and beyond...) till I get a definite answer, because I might have to go back and redo Intense Takedown and Grab Cannon again. It's also confusing because there's a "Both" attribute you can use when using the skill page template. For that very reason I was going to consolidate the same named skill pages instead of having separate male/female pages. EDIT: Nevermind about Nen Shot. There used to be a different icon but they are the same now. - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 13:31, 28 July 2015 (PDT)

Continuing on from here, Arrol asked is it possible to have two icons. Yes, we can add when |Gender is set to both add (female).png (male).png (skillname) to the skillbox. Only problem is, it would apply to gunners. To solve it, we can add a flag, "|DifferentIcon=true" and use that to determine if fighters have different skills icons but similar skill growth, and thus fit in one page.--Dfoplayer (talk) 20:17, 28 July 2015 (PDT)

It's it currently worked out or do you have to test it first? As for gunners, it shouldn't be an issue because the skills that have the same name have the same icons, too. Even if skill names are different (with the same icon) a redirect can be created similar to the current situation with Guard/Sword Barrier. - 21:47, 28 July 2015 (PDT)

The test template now has (female).png and (male).png. User:Dfoplayer/TestSkillPage. I currently have it on Nen Shot just to show you guys what it looks like.

Blakdoxaduo, are you suggesting we create a redirect to the correct icon for gunners? Then we would have two of the same icons. Take G-1 Corona for example. We should have something like
G-1 Corona
in the skill box. I think the best solution is creating another parameter, |DifferentIcon and it would solve the current problems.--Dfoplayer (talk) 08:36, 29 July 2015 (PDT)

Okay, I see what you mean now. So would using the "different icon" attribute keep only a single icon displayed if set to false, for pages like G-1 Corona or Nen Shot? - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 09:20, 29 July 2015 (PDT)

Yup. Gives us more control over different skill pages. Arrol pointed out that we should have the option of two videos. I will try to add that later today. --Dfoplayer (talk) 10:47, 29 July 2015 (PDT)

This Issue should be resolved. To see the appearance of two videos, Nen Shot. To see the appearance of two skill icons, Venom Mine. However, since Venon Mine is really different from female and male, they should not have the same page together. Anyways, let me know what you all think so i can change the test template before adding to the live SkillPage. --Dfoplayer (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2015 (PDT)

IMHO, I'd like to see the 2 videos put into tabs like how the skill leveling info is separated if possible. Just from a visual consistency standpoint, in all the other skill pages the sidebar info is short enough so that all the info it has can be seen without scrolling. Though that'd clash with how that sidebar info isn't that interactive with any type of Wikipedia page (as far as I've seen) so it may not be apparent to people. Also, as a side note I think those videos need to be redone/updated to also show leveled up Nen Shot for Nen Masters (where it travels a longer distance).

For the 2 images case (Venom Mine), if we're just going to be doing 2 pages of the skills anyway, why do both icons need to be shown? We're probably going to want to have the Wikipedia disambiguation "Did you mean x" at the top of those pages, so wouldn't that just be redundant to have both images shown for both classes? On top of minorly confusing for those unfamiliar with the skill (unless clicking on the images linked to the different skill pages). EDIT: As far as I recall, Gunners don't have different skill icons files, so if we're just separating the fighter images with (Female/Male) I think it should be fine having just one image on the page. --SirKerfluffles (talk) 09:05, 30 July 2015 (PDT)

I'm finding that the situation with Venom Mine is similar to the grappler's Fling and (M)Fling. Right now, I'm trying to think on how to best organize the information on the page.
@SirKerfullffles - That's the test page. It will be different look a lot better once all the info gets put in the right place. - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 13:30, 30 July 2015 (PDT)

Tabs have been implemented as shown on Nen Shot. Its not pretty, but I'll keep working on it.

For two icons, as of right now, I do not know any skills that uses two icons. I implemented the change because it could be needed in the future. Also, it is hard coded with <skillname> (Female).png and <skillname> (Male).png, as I can only see a gender skill having two icons.

For what its worth, we should be splitting the skills into its own page if the gender differences are big. --Dfoplayer (talk) 20:55, 30 July 2015 (PDT)

Is it possible we can name the video tabs to like "Male" and "Female"? Arrol (talk) 21:22, 30 July 2015 (PDT)

In my eyes, the only things making it "not pretty" would be that the videos are outside the blue box, and like Arrol stated, the lack of tab labeling as "Female" and "Male".

@Blakdoxaduo. In regards to Fling and (M)Fling, they sound like they should be on 2 different pages. I'm not sure where your thoughts will take it, but the way I see it there's 2 ways to organize the info if you want to all on one page. First we could use the tab formatting for all the sections. Second, we can 2 subsections for each main section to split the Female/Male info. Ex:

==Notes==
===Female=== 
info
===Male===
info

I'm not a fan of either one of these. For the first one, there's too much the user has to do to manage for viewing the info. Assume it defaults to female. If I wanted to see all the Male info, for example, that'd be at least 3 clicks + scrolling to get all the proper tabs open, as opposed to just opening a separate page. And if I wanted to switch back to Female info, what if I left one of the Male tabs open and accidentally mixed up the data? If it were 2 pages, it'd only take one click in each of these cases and it'd lessen the chance of confusion. For the second case with subsections, I feel like it'd be too much of a text dump of it'd ruin the purpose of some of the formatting choices. Like for attributes, the colors make it easy to find how many cube fragments the skill costs, and its easy to see if the skill is cancellable. When there's 2 sections, you have to make sure you're looking at the right section. Also if one version has a lot more info than the other, I'd just be scrolling over a lot of text I'm not interested in find what I want to read. --SirKerfluffles (talk) 22:13, 30 July 2015 (PDT)

With regards with naming the tabs, should we also have a parameter to name the two tabs whatever we want? Or just leave them locked to 'Female' and 'Male' tabs names. And yes, SirKerfluffles, I am working on the outside of the blue box part. --Dfoplayer (talk) 23:30, 30 July 2015 (PDT)

I have a feeling that the option to name the tabs whatever we want may be more useful. Arrol (talk) 01:17, 31 July 2015 (PDT)

Issues with naming tabs and blue box solved. Example, Nen Shot. Tab names are controlled by |NameTab and |NameTab2. We still have not come to a conclusion about two skill icons, but for whats its worth, we should leave it in there. It is controlled by |DiffIcon=Yes attribute, so as long as the skill page does not have that, we are fine. We can even exclude the parameter from the sample Usage code.

Also, I have tried to hide tab2 if Video2 is NOT defined. I have not much luck on that so we will have to see tab2 on all skill pages. --Dfoplayer (talk) 22:28, 31 July 2015 (PDT)

No other suggestions? Then I'm pushing the changes now.--Dfoplayer (talk) 16:26, 2 August 2015 (PDT)

Good job on the changes. For now, no comments to add, yeah.--SirKerfluffles (talk) 01:10, 3 August 2015 (PDT)

Info Update

So I'm estimating in about 3-4 weeks, the project's gonna be at the point where like 95% of the stuff left to do is updating skill information. Is there a current plan regarding how that's going to work? Because if we don't at least one player for every class among the current updaters, it's gonna be quite while for all the skills to get up to date. --SirKerfluffles (talk) 15:22, 8 August 2015 (PDT)

I still don't know how Absolute Damage works, otherwise i could work on Asura. Arrol (talk) 15:38, 8 August 2015 (PDT)

Tooltip=# value comes from the number on the tooltip. IndependentAttack=# value comes from your character sheet (default hotkey is M). Just copy the template and plug in the values. You can look at most of the berserker skills for an example. I made a post on nexus explaining it with images here. The template's page itself also explains it a bit more than the metastasis page.--Lokd (talk) 15:52, 8 August 2015 (PDT)

Ok, but I was referring to a general consensus. Because we're adding information based on our own personal gear, which won't be the same for everyone. Arrol (talk) 16:54, 8 August 2015 (PDT)

The absolute damage template doesn't care what your weapon or refining or enchants are since they are all totaled up in your character sheet. The in-game tooltips already dynamically update when your independent attack changes so we just have to divide that tooltip by how much independent attack you have at that moment to get that skill's multiplier for that level. This is exactly what the template does. There is no need to worry about if your gear is the same as mine if we were to both be filling out a skill's growth table. If you really have doubts about this go observe the Extreme Overkill table. Notice that many of the levels have differing values for tooltip and independent attack between skill levels. But that actual resulting multiplier consistently increases as the skill level goes up. So go ahead and put in whatever values you have. As long as you are in town it should be ok whatever gear you have. Just remember to take off any TP skills. Those also affect the tooltip. If you are in a combat area, including the training room, unequip any gear you have as well, chronicle gear and probably some other gear affect the tooltip without affecting your independent attack.--Lokd (talk) 05:52, 9 August 2015 (PDT)

Oh wow. Didn't realize we were going to convert most of the skill pages soon. Since the wiki is entirely dependent on volunteers, I think the plan is to have people who play in different classes should update them. Until then, {{MissingInfo is going to be needed on many pages. --Dfoplayer (talk) 16:07, 8 August 2015 (PDT)

I've been working on it, doing bits and pieces little by little. When we get to that point, I suggest somebody known on the boards go recruiting for the classes we nobody for. --SirKerfluffles (talk) 17:18, 8 August 2015 (PDT)

Okay sounds good. I don't play much, but I can try asking my guild to fill in what they can. --Dfoplayer (talk) 17:35, 8 August 2015 (PDT)

Oh boy! At least this is coming along, right? Right now I have 19 characters (as shown on my user page) so at some point I'll make rounds to each of those class's respective skill pages, but it will take me a while... In regards to seeking additional help, I have asked around at DFON for clarification on certain class mechanics, skills, or other things regarding the game and so far the responses have been pretty helpful. There's also r/DFO which has some useful info from time to time. All I say is make sure you validate your sources and test out things in the game before you put your findings up on the wiki.
@Lokd @Arrol I know I first mentioned that fixed damage has been changed to absolute damage a couple months back. Even I don't quite understand how we'll account for it since absolute damage is affected by your weapon's base attack (which is affected by quality), your character's own independent attack power and refining through Jun. So simply put it's not going to be easy to deal with. The good thing is that strength and intelligence only affect physical and magical attack power, respectively, now. So no need to factor those in. What I would suggest is having a baseline set like using the stats of a capped character. The only thing is that I don't know if independent attack power is the same across capped characters. Once that's figured out then we'd have to figure out if we want to account for a weapon equipped or not. If we do use a weapon maybe a magic sealed superior quality unique would suffice. Might need your guys's help to hammer this out a bit more, so any is appreciated!
I'll definitely be around to catch some of the 2nd awakening changes, update what I can, and maybe sporadically do an update marathon. - Blakdoxaduo (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2015 (PDT)

Like I said above, there is no need to over complicate things by having a base gear set or anything like that since the tooltips dynamically update and all your independent attack is totaled up in your character sheet (my status), which are the two numbers you would use for the absolute damage template. Just remember to take off TPs and gear that affects the tooltip without affecting independent attack, Chronicle items notably. What is not easy to deal with is status damage like bleeding. That may be what is confusing everyone. Status damage is not affected by independent attack but does change when the character levels up. It's tooltip doesn't dynamically change with any stat change afaik. Status damage should not use the absolute damage template. There was already some confusion about it over at the Swift Katana Mastery talk page. For status damage, it would be best if a naked level 85 were to fill in those.--Lokd (talk) 05:52, 9 August 2015 (PDT)

Can I be in charge of updating most of the M/F Gunner pages? I have pretty much every M/F Gunner subclass, except the F. Launcher. I can update those values quite easily. I've also updated both M/F Rangers and M/F Mechanics to DFOG (page format conversion may be required). I can probably finish the M/F Gunner base class skills by the end of this week. Afterwards, I will transition to the M/F Spitfire.
Other class skills I can update: E. Bomber, Soul Bender, Priest, Crusader, Monk, Mage, Battle Mage, Elementalist, Thief. However, I'll be busy until Aug. 13th, so my updates will appear periodically until then before I can fully commit to this project.--Altair (talk) 03:47, 9 August 2015 (PDT)

Final Project Phase Discussion

Well there's no physical reason you guys can't start editing now so might as well have this discussion now. You guys can even jump in on the format updating and do it right the first time if it's not done already (unlike me who can't since I play like 3 classes). When updating the skill pages, let's try to make it so that we fill them in as much as possible. Here's some main points that should be addressed. --SirKerfluffles (talk) 10:25, 9 August 2015 (PDT)

1. So in the Description section, at the minimum could we get the game's description of the move in there (even if they sometimes aren't that great).

2. Double check all the information already on the page. Delete/Fill in the blanks as necessary.

Related: In most formatting updates I did, since a majority of the pages are missing something or another anyways I was lazy and left blank attributes and stuff in there from the template (even on some tp pages where I know they don't make sense).

From what I've seen, next to none of the pages have arena based info, so let's try and get that in there.

3. How do we want to handle the videos section? Like for TP skills, there COULD be a video of the move, but really it's only make sense if it was a comparison video of the move with vs. w/o the TP buff, and it's not really that necessary. Do we just want to leave them as "no video", or just link the video of the move again, or what?

4. Double check that all of the skills from the class are there, spelled correctly, and have the proper image.

There may also still be some extra skills lying around. I've seen some esp. for Monk and Exorcist at the minimum when I was mass image uploading.

Example: Shield Stark Upgrade should be Stark Shield Upgrade

Example: shows up as the image that shows up the Avenger's Thunder Mine skill instead of File:AV4.png.

EDIT: Part of a larger problem here of having an item's name match a skill's name. There should be others of this case in the future, like how a slayer's Guard has the same name as a level 80 Uncommon Sub Equip (it's not on the wiki yet afaik).

5. Side note: Arrol has brought up that it'd be nice if we could delete the unused attributes from the skill tables (ex: erase "Tab3" if the move is not toggleable, "Video2" and "NameTab2" if there's no other video. What do you guys think of this? Just after updates seem done, go in and remove the unused attributes?

6. Should we have designated class executives, people who would maybe be in charge of final information checking and could be in charge of removing the Missing Info tag or something.

7. EDIT: Also, I still don't think we've reached a definite conclusion on how we're handling Male/Female fighter skill pages. It really sounds like it's up to discussion/collaboration on deciding how similar the skills are to each other on each case. Like for M/F gunners we do the tabs approach (ex: Fastest Gun) since they're not so different (from what I heard). And if the fighter skills function like that then use tabs, but otherwise make 2 separate pages like Venom Mine?

3. Well, isn't all passive skills do not have videos? How is TP skills different? I might be able to "hide" videos section just for Passive and/or TP skills in the template.

5. I have no preference. I'm just lazy to type in the unused attributes even if it's just copying and pasting.

6. That is going to be hard since whoever has played the class will know if Missing Info tags should be removed or not.

7. The "not reaching to a definite conclusion" is true. From what I know, we were planning to separate the Fighter skills into two pages, due to differences in description, skill growth, and notes. However, a solution could be we use Tabs in all the sections and we can stick to one page for simplicity. I'm not sure how the prerequisite skills and/or commands sections are going to work however. --Dfoplayer (talk) 11:41, 9 August 2015 (PDT)

3. Some passives and TP skills could use a video while others don't really need them. Passives that have a real observable effect like  Spiritual Sacrifice or  Loyal Servant should get videos, especially if they already have one in game. TP skills that just increase the damage of a skill or something similar don't need a video but for ones like  Shadow Binding Upgrade or  Hired Summon: Hellflower Aukuso Upgrade that have a pretty big change to the way the skill works should get a video.

5. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is there an example page that has this issue?

--Lokd (talk) 14:48, 9 August 2015 (PDT)

Well now I see the two video tabs but I don't see how it's that big of a problem. It's not exactly in the way or anything.--Lokd (talk) 15:10, 9 August 2015 (PDT)

Yeah not sure exactly why it's an issue for him. I'm guessing it just for having a cleaner page behind the scenes. Though I have some reasons to prefer to just leave the blank things in, I'm fine with whatever for the final product. --SirKerfluffles (talk) 15:28, 9 August 2015 (PDT)

Class Info Volunteer List

Add your name below if you wanna help work on a class so we know who else we need. EDIT: Multiple people per class is totally fine. (Feel free to move this section if it's better off elsewhere, like on the main page) --SirKerfluffles (talk) 10:25, 9 August 2015 (PDT)

• Male Slayer: Altair
  • Blade Master: Altair
  • Soul Bender: Altair
  • Berserker: Lokd
  • Asura: Arrol

• F. Slayer: AradEditGuy
  • Sword Master: AradEditGuy, Altair
  • Demon Slayer: Altair
  • Vagabond: Altair
  • Dark Templar: Lokd, Altair

• M. Fighter: SirKerfluffles,
  • M. Nen Master: Altair
  • M. Striker:
  • M. Brawler: SirKerfluffles,
  • M. Grappler:

• F. Fighter:
  • F. Nen Master:
  • F. Striker:
  • F. Brawler:
  • F. Grappler: AradEditGuy

• M. Gunner: Altair
  • M. Ranger: Altair
  • M. Launcher: Altair
  • M. Mechanic: Altair
  • M. Spitfire: Altair

• F. Gunner: Altair
  • F. Ranger: Altair
  • F. Launcher: AradEditGuy, Altair
  • F. Mechanic: Altair
  • F. Spitfire: Altair

• M. Mage: Altair
  • Elemental Bomber: Altair
  • Glacial Master: Altair

• F. Mage: Altair
  • Elementalist: User:Everspace
  • Summoner: Lokd
  • Witch: AradEditGuy
  • Battle Mage: Altair

• Priest: AradEditGuy, Altair
  • Crusader: Altair
  • Monk: AradEditGuy, Altair
  • Exorcist: Altair
  • Avenger:

• Thief: Altair
  • Rogue:
  • Necromancer:
  • Kunoichi: Altair
  • Shadow Dancer:

• Dark Knight: SirKerfluffles,

• Knight:
  • Elven Knight:
  • Chaos: AradEditGuy

• Creator:

PvP Values

Hey, I was wondering when we should start inserting PvP values into skill pages. I noticed that most of the DFO related sites and wikis around the web don't really focus much on these. They may not seem that much in value in comparison to PvE values, but there is a rather large PvP based community. Should these be updated after all the class PvE skill values are entered? Another question, should a page continue to have the missing info template if they do not have PvP values as well? --Altair (talk) 11:07, 12 August 2015 (PDT)

Was wondering about this as well and just to throw down another concern with PvP values: Is there a way for tabs to be wrapped around the contents inside (the skill table) rather than extending to the edge of the browser? For example: Marilyn_Rose, I've been avoiding this problem by throwing down some notes which makes it doesn't look as bad when the infobox clips with the tab box. --AradEditGuy (talk) 13:27, 12 August 2015 (PDT)

While I think there should be PvP values, I'm not sure if MissingInfo should be on the page if PvP is missing. I play PvE. In my opinion, to get through the Epic Quests/game storyline, you do not need PvP values and thus MissingInfo should be removed when PvE are updated.

Tried a simple fix for the Tabs issue. Haven't figured it out. May need some more research. --Dfoplayer (talk) 15:19, 12 August 2015 (PDT)

Got it. Tab's issue with using the whole page has been fixed. Tested on Steep Slide and Marilyn Rose. --Dfoplayer (talk) 20:59, 12 August 2015 (PDT)

Consider that the purpose of a wiki is to provide as much information as possible, I'm of the opinion that the Missing Info tag should be left on. Just because a big focus of the game is PvE based, not having the PvP info is like saying "anybody not interested in PvE, sorry but you're not welcome here." Let's not go about inadvertently separating the community here. --SirKerfluffles (talk) 12:52, 14 August 2015 (PDT)

Makes sense. I'll keep that in mind and try to mark the non PvP skill tables as Missing Info.--Dfoplayer (talk) 18:03, 14 August 2015 (PDT)

I've run into an issue with pvp values on absolute damage. Changing my IA gives different values with the template. With 1450 IA, Blood sword does 3478 damage or 2.4 multiplier. With 1025 IA, Blood sword does 2224 damage or 2.17 multiplier. The first is with Gracia weapon and the second is with no weapon. Unequipping my title which also gives me IA changes it to 985 IA, Blood sword does 2106 damage or 2.14 multiplier. What to do in these cases?--Lokd (talk) 19:04, 3 September 2015 (PDT)

Question. Are you in the Arena area while getting the PvP values or are you in town? --Altair (talk) 19:52, 3 September 2015 (PDT)

Same thing happens regardless of where I am, whether it is in town, in pvp lobby, or in a match. This doesn't happen for pve values though.--Lokd (talk) 18:43, 4 September 2015 (PDT)

Thanks for bring this up. I think I've encountered this problem as well while updating other pages, e.g. Ice Crusher. With weapon:1574/1255 = 1.25. Other weapon: 1675/1318 = 1.27. Without weapon: 1142/985 = 1.16. It could be possible that the game has a different algorithm for finding fixed damage values in Arena. I think this requires further study. I suggest we should probably hold off on updating fixed values until we know what is exactly going on. --Altair (talk) 19:21, 4 September 2015 (PDT)

Base Mana and Cooldown Values

This is just a heads up. It has come to my attention that some MP consumption and cooldown values in skill tables are not the Base Values. Be aware of the weapon attributes (e.g. Staff increases Magical MP Cost and Cooldown by +5%). Be wary, the game data can be quite fickle. Some skills aren't affected by the weapon attributes at all. If you aren't sure about your values, make sure to make a notification of the weapon you are using. Also, certain skills such as Musket Mastery and Heavy Firearm Mastery can change your cooldown and MP values. Make sure that these skills are disabled when receiving values. --Altair (talk) 22:08, 1 September 2015 (PDT)

ARRG!

It's fixed damage all over again.

-- Everspace (talk) 22:20, 1 September 2015 (PDT)

Honestly, it's not as bad as you think. Most classes have a way of getting over this issue, with exception of the Slayer/Knight and Thief.

For finding Physical Values Use:

• Slayer/Knight: Short Sword
• Mage: Staff
• Fighter: Claw
• Gunner: Revolver
• Priest: Cross
• Thief: Kunai

For finding Magical Values Use:

• Slayer: Lightsabre
• Mage: Rod
• Fighter: Claw
• Gunner: Bowgun
• Priest: Scythe
• Thief: Kunai

For the most part, Slayers/Knights and Thieves have the most difficult time getting the correct values since most don't have access to Lightsabres or Kunais. But you can always use the Weapon Reference pages and multiply by X value to get the base amount. Personally, I use past skill builders to check for the values since mana values rarely change. --Altair (talk) 22:44, 1 September 2015 (PDT)

I don't think it's bad, just obnoxious. I totally forgot about this. I think there are classes where it's not TOO bad, and a 5% variance is not a dealbreaker. -- Everspace (talk) 23:21, 1 September 2015 (PDT)

Would it also work to just use a naked character when recording values? --SirKerfluffles (talk) 18:20, 2 September 2015 (PDT)

I don't believe so. From what I recall, naked characters have their default weapon equipped. (e.g. Slayer: Short Sword). --Altair (talk) 21:37, 2 September 2015 (PDT)