Proposal: More categories

I like the way it is currently handled. Description just describes the skill without going too in depth in the mechanics of the skill. Attributes are numerical constants of the skill like cooldowns and cube costs. Notes is for any additional information that could affect skill usage like iframe availability, additional inputs, or conditions for use. If you add additional categories like that it will make other skills that don't have anything to put there seem less complete, while if a skill has fewer lines of notes it's not really a big deal. Additionally some skills have inputs in their in game description while others do not. Blood Sword's in-game description tells you that it is possible to stab in place by holding back but Thrust does not say anything about reducing the distance by holding back. So do these two skills have differing pages in this regard even though their additional inputs are the same but thrust's is not apparent?

Having toggleable as a type allows for categorization. Maybe a new line called Buff with yes or no or blank=no as values would be worthwhile so they can be categorized automatically. Speaking of that maybe changing type3 to toggleable in the same way would be a good idea.

I think the cast time deal is in regards to Indomitable Spirit. I don't use the skill myself but maybe someone can tell if there is an instant cast skill that is affected by indomitable spirit. There are also plenty of attack skills that have actual cast times. Many mage skills have cast times for example. Photon Bomb and Napalm have cast times. Nearly all Dark Templar skills have cast times. I think for the sake of consistency it would be better to include cast time even if it is simply instant cast. Providing as much information as possible is a wiki's purpose as well.

Lokd (talk)

Can a skill be BOTH togglable and a buff at the same time? Then yes, we need to rethink this. Otherwise, you can fill in Type3=Buff, if there are no conflictions.

Dfoplayer (talk)

Yes, Apply Poison is like this, although in my defence the last time I played skills like this just had a really long duration rather than how it is now.

I really think that the way I handled this really sucks. Preferably I would like to migrate to the use Semantic, and the idea of just a skill info-box for the more data and numerical parts to take care of all these obnoxious intersections (and future ones if the they make something like Demonize or Apostlize a toggle).

-- Everspace (talk)

Sorry for the below. I suck at being concise.

The way it's shown on Seismic Punch is probably misleading compared to what I mean. I did it like that because you can't just go in adding more categories freely with the template. Like putting |NewSection=(words text info rambling) will literally be ignored by the wiki and nothing will change on the page.

To clarify, I agree with the sentiment that Description should pretty much be a short skill description without going too in-depth. Looking at how Seismic Punch is now, that would mean the Description section would just be the mini Description I put under the Modified Game Description (which would be left out entirely. It was just for reference for this discussion). The other two Additional Inputs and Additional Mechanics section could be in the overarching Notes section. I was initially thinking they could be their own sections in the template (ex: |Mechanics=...), but it doesn't matter much where they are as long as that type of information is easily delineated from the rest of the random notes somehow. Pretty much I'm saying the Notes can get messy (considering all the stuff that's in it, like you described Lokd) and important stuff key to how the skill works should be easily discernible.

Ghost 7: Furious Blache is a pretty decent example to use here. Read through the Notes. Now let's just pretend there's some other bullet points in there describing imaginary special inputs like "if you hold left/right, you can determine which direction the whale leaps up from" and "if you push the skill key again before Blanche appears it does more knockback". Because it's too much work to look for another skill with this much going on already in the notes. For the most part, everything not in one of the subsections (Ghost Bonuses + Tips) is describing skill mechanics, how the skill actually works. Bullets 4 and 7 are kinda questionable in that sense. Damage type is something I feel should be a skill attribute (Attributes isn't just numbers btw, considering we're counting Basic Attack Cancellable as an attribute). And Bullet 7 sounds more like a thing that goes into the already nicely defined Tips Subsection since not it's really saying anything regarding how the skill works. It's just providing info on something you can do to maximize efficiency if you were playing around and realized this detail. Now if the 2 command bullets I mentioned were randomly put in that list, I think it'd be weird to have to read through a bunch of additional info before fining the part that say "Hey btw, you can press this button during the skill to control how it works. Back to this thing about sacrificing ghosts...".

I don't think adding these categories would make other skill pages look less complete. If the sections aren't there, I'd just assume that there's nothing special about the skill in those regards. Or we could just always include the sections and say "None" or something, but that's a waste of space imo.

Regarding the Blood Sword vs. Thrust thing, they would both have the Additional Inputs section. The in game descriptions can be kinda lackluster at times so we have to use our better judgment. I swear, the description they give for Needle Spin is something like "Throws a needle and inflicts damage" (can't log onto the game now to check). Which is so off. And then they give an essay for Needle Throw itself that doesn't really even mention throwing needles.

@Dfoplayer: Wave Manifestation Brand appears to be both. It bothers me a bit that there's apparently there's no super category of just "Togglable moves", but instead it's per class (Demon Slayer Toggleable Moves, Soul Bender Toggleable moves, etc.).

As a side note, looking at Ghost 7, I feel like it's a good idea to move the Attributes section to be right above the Skill Growth section. It's usually not a problem, but if the Notes section gets big enough, I don't see why I'd have to scroll up past a wall of text to find information like SP cost and cooldowns that technically could be in the tables, but we aren't putting them because they're static. Spirit Summon: Spirit King Echeverria and Astral Storm for more examples.

SirKerfluffles (talk)

Ah. Okay. My solution would be |Toggable=y and |Buff=y. But, knowing certain people, they might agree with you on making a Template:Togglable, {{Toggable}, which automatically puts the skill into Category:Toggable Skill.

Dfoplayer (talk)

Ah, ok nice to verify that having a template automatically categorizes (I was just assuming before).

In the previous post I forgot to mention. For Cast Time, I guess it's fine if that's the case with Mages and Dark Templar. I don't particularly like the misleading "Instant Cast" for most skills though. But that's a whole 'nother issue involving collecting frame data for the game. If anyone wants to go ahead, but no way I'm up for that anytime soon.

I somewhat revoke my previous statement about moving the Attributes section, as "quick information at a glance" takes more priority over grouping information in edge cases. So it's probably fine where it is. Though on a related note, as I continue to work on the skills I'm finding more things that could be attributes. Like what about "Super Armor", "Invincibility", "Grab" (maybe even a distinction between Hold and Super Hold which I'm not really clear on). Despite the list size being variable per skill, I kinda fancy the idea of having the Attributes in the side box, kind of like how Bulbapedia does it on any Pokemon page. Just a thought.

SirKerfluffles (talk)

Indicating and differentiating between grabs might be cool. There are forced hitstun traps like Bloody Twister and grabs. For me the only difference there is one can work on large enemies like Skasa and the other can't. This could be more thoroughly test on mecha tau with his grab guard. I think any hitstun traps will work through that. In game the difference between a hold and super hold is sort of simple. A super hold occurs when you interrupt or prevent a monster from performing an attack. It doesn't necessarily have to be a grab. Stun status can trigger a super hold.

For invincibility and super armor and some other things, that might be more complicated. Many skills only have super armor or invincibility for certain frames. For example, Mountainous Wheel has super armor after the apex of the jump and iframes once you land and for a bit afterwards. Might look a bit messy unless you just indicate skills have super armor with a big Skill has super armor template or something general like that. If you decide to specifically state when the skill gains and loses super armor, it might look weird beside all these other attributes which are generally very short and concise. Or maybe it won't. Try throwing together an example skill page on your user page and let's see how it looks.

Lokd (talk)

I'll work on the skill page example over the next few days when I can. Could take a while since I've never done it before.

For the Holds/Super Holds, they're moves that put enemies into a "grabbed" status or something, I think would be the best crude explanation for my understanding. So with Junk Spin, every hit turns out to be a Super Hold because...the "grabbed" state duration is perfectly timed so that the next Junk hit comes when "grabbed" status ends? Then confusingly, I've encountered situations where after stunning an enemy, every attack against them becomes a Hold for the stun duration, even just simple jabs. This doesn't make sense since the "grabbed" status duration (from the stun) doesn't reset or anything, so why would the hits be considered holds? Other times in the same stun situation, all hits are normal without any Hold statuses appearing. It's still not clear.

SirKerfluffles (talk)

I've been working on making Semantic skill pages that hopefully solve a few of these problems.

As far as things like super-armour and iFrames go, I would just say the skill has them in general with something like a category like Skills that have superarmor and elaborate on where in some place like the notes.

AS FOR GRABS

This game handles lots of stuff weirdly.

Super Hold is I think at a base level "you stopped an enemy from performing an action". This is often overlapped with the generally used term of a hold (which is more often refers to a super hold) or a grab (which is more like Spriggan/BBQ/Smasher that require a hit before animation lock begins).

• There are animation holds, like Fling or Air Steiner where the enemy is travelling with you via forced animation on them.
• There are hitstun holds where the enemy is permanently flinched. Florae Collider and the initial suction of Sesto Elemento are like this.
• There are status holds like the illustrious Junk Spin that just lock something under a negative status effect. The Fear of Death from Dark Side room 4 is like this on players.

Some monsters can get out of hitstun, but can't really get out of a status or animation once inflicted. There are also more bizarre holds like Ouroboros which do something more unique.

-- Everspace (talk)

SirKerfluffles (talk)

The whole page needs a rework in such a way that it doesn't screw with what's already entered, and if it does, gracefully fails. I think the current stuff is "good enough" and really doesn't need anything done that soon.

I'm still fiddling with how the semantic stuff should be layed out. Once I get items "done", I would like to come back to skills.

-- Everspace (talk)